[benisraelthompson]

I really like vintage gear. I'm primarily a drummer (loving vintage equipment there, too) and I have hopes of being a producer in the future, so I want to have a solid knowledge about vintage gear. In my experience with buying vintage drums, I've found that you should not go buy something cause it's vintage and looks like it's in good condition. It's much better to know the history of different brands, and their construction, to make sure you don't get taken on a "sweet deal." So, with your experience, what are some things to look for besides the obvious cracks and other cosmetic issues? ie, I've heard the magnets in pickups love their strength over time, etc...

I'm basically looking for a crash course in buying vintage guitars.

Thanks in advance for any and all advice!
Ben Israel Thompson

[jules]

Hi Ben,
and welcome

Originality is the main thing. Primarily original finish and parts. Spotting what is and what isn't original requires some knowledge of what they should be like to start with. This is not always a simple task. Study catalogue pictures, and other pristine examples shown online.

A skilled and careful luthier can fake things. Generally though, only a really valuable guitar is worth faking entirely... if in doubt avoid. I'd be cautious of some of the Fender necks and bodies out there with no real evidence to proove what they are.

Generally though, look out for refins, repairs and replaced hardware. Different guitars are more or less likely to have these issues. For example a Gibson often has a headstock repair, because that is the weakspot. A Strat, for example, may well have replaced parts, due to their wide availability, and peoples love of customisation.

Solid colour refins are often a sign of structural repairs. Not a problem for a player, but worth considering when deciding what to pay.

Another thing is upgraded models. Single coils replaced with humbuckers. One pickup models being routed for a second pickup. Gibson EB0 basses get turned into EB3s all the time.

Unfortunately there are a lot of modded guitars out there, and it will take a time to learn to tell them all apart.

What guitars in particular are you thinking about?

[benisraelthompson]

I'd like to produce, so I would probably like a healthy assortment of Gibsons and Fenders, but I would say that only because they are such a standard. I would probably like a 335 first. Also, I wanted to get your opinion on new vs. old guitars. I tend to gravitate towards vintage gear (and not "off" brands) because of my experience with drums. I was talking to some guys that run a really good boutique guitar shop and they said that new Gibsons and Fenders really aren't worth it, unless you buy the custom shop (which I would be buying), but even then, it's pushing it. They said if you go that route it might be best to get a vintage one. Then they listed a few "off" brands that supposedly make great guitars, and with more attention to detail than Gibson and Fender does now, and it's more like the way they used to. I remember they listed Herrington, Reverend, and Nash as really solid brands. I've heard good things about them from other players as well. Do you agree with this statement- that if I buy new, I should steer clear of the most classic brands, but if not I should just buy vintage? I'm overly cautious about "off" brands because, in drumming, there are very few custom companies I trust... and... old kits just sound better

[jules]

The ES 335 changed over the years, different neck profiles, woods and construction (see this page: Gibson ES335 which details some of these).

You can't go too far wrong with vintage Gibson mid to high end stuff. Some of the low end models can be pretty nice too. A played-in guitar has some indefinable qualities that a new one doesn't. I vastly prefer vintage gear.

I also feel they used better quality woods around these times, that are not necessarily available now.

New Gibsons are still good, though, although probably quite expensive compared to a lot of brands.

[VOXguy]

Here's what I look for - Completeness (missing parts can be impossible to find, or extremely expensive as in buying several guitars to make one), No refinishing whatsoever (ugly, faded, discolored, dinged and stained is better than any professional refinish), no detectable repairs (if I can tell it was repaired it automatically becomes a "parts" item at best), No warps, no bows, no separations, no loose parts that should not be loose (can you say thousands to fix?), Non - NOS or vintage replacements, including upgrades, I want it exactly as it came from the factory, any less is a frankenstein (there are a few exceptions like a bolt on string tensioner for a Jazzmaster that stops the buzz and string hopping on the bridge). I also look for classic colors and rarity, like if I was going to buy a single Les Paul for me it would have to be a '59 gold top. I prefer ebony and maple fretboards, especially on guitars where those fretboards are very rare.

Finally, look at all of the other vintage markets. Nostalgia sells, and its the 55 to 70 year old man who has the money to buy his teen age dream. Look at Corvette and muscle car auction prices; $150,000 for a restored car that sold new for under $4,000.

The real problem is that the generation that idolized guitar rock stars is now comprised of guys about 10-15 years younger and the economy sucks. In ten years those VOX, Fenders and Gibsons,etc in excellent shape that were being played in the late 60's and 70's will all be going for 20-40 times what they cost new, and $10,000 won't seem like a lot. In short NOW is the time to invest.

I paid $339 for a new VOX Cougar in 1964. Gasoline was $0.199 a gallon, a new Mustang was $2,200, New suburban homes were $13,500. In short, in today's money that was/is a $3,500 guitar. The market is more like $1,500 today; I expect it to double in 5 years.

I have an early '50's dreadnought acoustic that was owned and played by a famous early player. Its an Oscar Schmidt that was probably a mail order from Montgomery Ward, but its a hand made guitar with an exceptional spruce top and mahogany body. In short, you would have to pay thousands today for an equivalent new Martin or Taylor. This is where the huge buys are at present.

[benisraelthompson]

Thanks! That helps. In my experience, with drums, you can almost get vintage equipment cheaper. For example, I got my '66 Ludwig kit for $750 (which is a really great price- but an average sale in a good economy would be around $1,200-$1,250. That being about "average" for the market overall seems like a great deal to me. A new Ludwig kit, same sizes, but doesn't sound as good (in my opinion), but would be around $2,200. And a vintage kit has 30+ years of "warmth" added to the tone because of the aging. My kit is fairly rare, and ranks at the top of Ludwig quality drums, before there were multiple "lines", so it seems like a good deal. The same is the case with vintage cymbals. At the very top of the "rare food chain," it is more expensive, (ie a really rare, immaculate, fibes/slingerland kit, or early jazz cymbals, etc. But all others, it almost seems more affordable to buy vintage gear, provided you know about vintage gear. Is this the case with guitars as well?